Here's a discussion I had with someone over Bhagwad Geeta on TOI forum (Stop reading now if you don't want to go to the end, it may mislead):
mukunda (Bengaluru) replies to Siddharth
21 Jul, 2011 02:50 PM
Ok,lets read ch 4 verse 13. catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah tasya kartaram api mam viddhy akartaram avyayam "According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable." 1st line"catur-varnyam maya srstam" 4 varnas are created by Me(Paramatma),2nd line "guna-karma-vibhagasah" where the vabhajan\categorization is based on one's guna composition and karma composition. 3rd and 4th line states how He is the non doer and unchangable. Sri Krishna says that each living entity is categorized into one of the 4 varnas based ONLY on their previous records of Gunas and their Karma. NOWHERE He mentions about janana\birth as the basis of categorization (example: a son of a brahmana is not a brahmana(by birth), but he becomes a brahmana by his gunas and karma), where as caste system is a system which is categorized purely based on birth(example: a son of a brahmana is automatically placed in the general merit(due to birth in a brahmana family) and a son of a scheduled caste is placed as a scheduled caste(due to birth in a scheduled caste family)). now can you please explain your statement "Gita encourages caste system. How can we allow a book that doesn't consider all humans as equal and believes that the humans are divided in 4 castes." Gita states that you earn your varna due to your previous deeds and guna records. this system is present everywhere. you dont ask a school dropout person to become an IAS officer. he has to earn this position by doing required action(passing IAS exam) and also including his guna composition. NOTE: its very easy to read anti hindu articles on the internet and comment by taking bits and pieces. but Satyameva Jayate, Truth alone triumphs. regards, mukunda
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Siddharth replies to mukunda
11 hrs ago (02:36 PM)
If Varna is NOT determined by birth then tell me how many people were there in our entire history that were the born in the house of shudras but became Brahmins by their deeds? You just can't name it. Because a son of brahmin is always considered a brahmin and it is assumed that he did good deeds in his past life. and same goes for the shudras. Hence, encouragement of caste system.
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Rahul Bhalerao (bglr) replies to mukunda
21 Jul, 2011 10:41 PM
Why doesn't Geeta clearly say that it is not the birth that determines varna? why make ambiguous statements? Previous deeds/karma means what? The deeds/education/skills acquired in this birth or the popular interpretation of previous birth's karma? If deeds decide varna then just like deeds can keep changing why can't a varna change? If it is only the deeds that determine varna, why are the atrocities based on varna justified? Let the incompetent be poor, why do we need to torture them? Why doesn't it acknowledge the scientific and philosophical truth that all human beings are equal? Are all these confusions left like that so that it can be interpreted to justify the injustice in the name of varna and dharma? We don't know of practical goodness of the bright interpretations of Geeta but we certainly know the dark side of it, that varna is birth based and has caused injustice for thousands of years.
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mukunda replies to Rahul Bhalerao
11 hrs ago (02:48 PM)
Namaste Rahul,answers to your queries are below 1:"Why doesnt Geeta clearly say that it is not the birth that determines varna? why make ambiguous statements?" ans: its not ambiguous, in fact Sri Krishna clearly states the definition of varna as based ONLY on guna and karma.example: definition of sphere is : a sphere is a perfectly round geometrical object in three-dimensional space, such as the shape of a round ball(wikipedia).here the sphere is defined by categorically placing it in the shape of round and in 3D space. now i would definitely look foolish if i state that its ambigious since it doesnt state anything about squares or rectangle shapes(apart from circular/round). it doesnt include any other shapes since it does not categorically fall in any other shapes. likewise, when Sri Krishna is clearly telling varna is based ONLY on guna and karma, asking the question of janma is irrelevent since this definition is not proof by negation/proof by shortlisting. in ch 18 verse 41, Sri Krishna reaffirms about the varnas "brahmana-kshatriya-visam "O Arjuna, the karma/acitivities of the brahmanas,ksatriyas,vaisyas and sudras are clearly divided according to the gunas/qualities born of their own nature" 2: "previous deeds/karma means what? " again Sri Krishna defines karma as sanchita karma prarabdha karma aagama karma. 1. sanchita karma (karma in storage, karma already done) 2. prArabdha karma (karma that has begun to bear fruit,karma being done) 3. AgAmi karma (karma resulting from future activities). this is a very huge topic to cover here. 3:"If deeds decide varna then just like deeds can keep changing why can't a varna change? " ans:varna does change; a brahmana can become a shudra and vice versa. example: Brahmarishi Vishwamitra was a kshatriya Raja/king and his original name was Kaushika. He was a Kshatriya who became a Brahmana due to his deeds(becoming a Brahmarishi). since nobody is born to any varna, they can change varna depending on their karma and guna. regards,
Rahul Bhalerao:
Mukunda, it is good that you brought the point of altering Varna! I suggest you take a look at the research paper 'who were shudras' by Dr. Ambedkar. There are number of cases where you see varna being changed in mythological history. But the question remains the same, first of all why divide the society in general, and second how did this division became so robust, rigid and remained based on birth for all the practical reality of 3 thousand years? What was it in the religion that caused an apparently mere labor hierarchy into a rigid system of varna and caste that is present in all its glory? Start reading all these mythological scriptures in more un-religious manner and you find the answers. Just like any other society in world, the priest class of brahmins secured unequivocal powers in the times of darkness through religion. Your own Upanishads are the story of competition between kshatriyas and brahmins. Off-course it is not just the Gita that made the varna/caste system the way it is, there has been a steady and well thought process behind it with all the conflict of interests doing their part of the job. Brahmins corrupted Vedas to gain religious sanction for their authority. Kshatriyas in competition with brahmins to control the society made their own versions by posing themselves as the incarnation of Gods. And again brahmins proved their superiority by reciting the brahmin authority through God's own mouth. In order to make sure that the powers of one generation remain reserved for rest of the coming generations of the same class, Varna had to be made rigid. If only Karma was the determinant of one's destiny, then what is the explanation for all the rigidity over thousands of year? Why didn't these apparently great thoughts resulted in a great society? Varna/Caste system as we know and as has existed for thousands of years, is the greatest poison in our society. Now please don't make the futile claims of how great system it used to be and how it must have benefited people. Buddha has already condemned this system very strongly even 2500 years ago. No matter how hard you try to sugar coat a poison, it will still have its effect. The effect is what we have witnessed but the poison is still we deny.
By the way, we don't have problem with round shape being defined specifically and interpreted in one single way without any ambiguity, because there is no way it could be interpreted differently, neither there has been any proof to any interpretation of it being a square. That is mathematical conformance. Coming back to your Varna and Karma and geeta etc., we do know for sure that Varna is indeed practiced based on birth, we all know about the interpretation that the karma of past birth causes one to be born in particular Varna, and the belief that a particular Varna person has particular qualities suitable for that Varna only. All these are well propagated interpretations supporting the rigid system (not flexible as claimed by you) and accepted throughout the Indian society (irrespective of the caste they belonged to or religious practices they had). We don't say Brahmins or Kshatriyas established and manipulated the Varna system for their benefit because they are inherently a cunning race, no, but they did do it certainly and cunningly because they happened to have powers in their hands which made them corrupt. Now that we know the truth of this evident corruption, at least now we can stay away from everything that has caused this corruption in first place. This is the precise reason why no anti-caste movement has ever called for a crusade against brahmins or upper castes but have condemned and burnt all these scriptures that have given opportunity for corruption and caused all the misery.
Out of my 7 questions, only first three were attempted to be answered to some extent, which are appearing non-satisfactory from the above reply. The core of the matter lies in later 4 questions which are not answered by Geeta admirers but better answered through the theory of religion based caste formation for power politics which is well explained by Dr. Ambedkar.
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ReplyDeleteThis totally off topic post of yours is showing up on start.fedoraproject.org page. Strange...
ReplyDeleteYour discussion brings back some memories. Thirty years ago I was involved in the Hare Krishna movement, which had to somehow turn lifetime meat eaters into brahmanas. The founder Srila Prabhupada told us that one who follows regulative principles and practices Bhakti Yoga is as good as a brahmana, according to Shree chaintanya Mahaprabhu. In HK you would become a brahmana upon receiving second initiation. I never made it. I quit thirty years ago and didn't look back.
ReplyDeleteI found this on the Fedora startup page. Just karma, I guess.
@Indro, this is my personal blog and I realize that this may go on fedoraproject. I have been involve with fedora for long, but gone inactive for some time. That is how my blogs are populated on fedora planet. I also see lot of personal stuff getting populated on fedora planet from many people. I really wished there would be some way to feed only selective posts to fedora. I rarely post, but I do post about foss as well in general.
ReplyDelete@James, unfortunately Indian society does not operate the way HK is presenting. One born downtrodden remains so, and one born brahmin remains so. People like me don't even care about the flexibily in this hierarchy, it is the hierarchy itself which is unneccessary. Btw India has hundreds of non-brahminical sects and practices within hinduism itself who do not care a bit about brahminical literature, even though they are still part of caste hierarchy. HK like movements may appear great to anyone who is out of this system but back home, they are actually brahminizing the local cultures and strengthening the same ethos that were root of the trouble. No wonder why Indians still kill each other in the name of religion and caste. It is worse than racism and slavery.
ReplyDeleteThe U.S. is theoretically an egalitarian society. If HK did not do its own reform of the caste system nobody in the U.S. would have accepted it. We did have some experience of the Indian caste system, though. There were people in India who told us that what we were doing was only good enough to get us a rebirth in India.
ReplyDeleteStrangely enough, I remember one day that an Indian couple who had just been married elsewhere came to our temple to get blessed by a brahmana. We had Indian devotees of that caste available, but they very specifically wanted an American brahmana. Somebody agreed to do it, and one of the Indians suggested what rites would make a passable blessing, because the American devotee didn't have a clue.
I like the Gita and the Mahabharata in general, but I find the caste system as indefensible as you do. And don't get me started on Vedic astronomy!
James, even I used to like both of them along with many other hindu spiritual articles. As good things in religion are meant to help anyone they did so to me also. But as I was growing up, with all the spiritual sincerity, I was lucky enough to come across many other things, like 'Atta Deep Bhava' by Buddha, that is to be your own light, not to trust in superstitions and judge things on your own intellect. Religion itself had tought me to be honest and respect the truth, and so was I also impressed by the rationalist way of thinking that discards everything that we don't know or prove, I started using Occam's razor long before I new of the man called Occam. It was a kind of boomerang of some consistent spiritual learning on my own hindu ideology itself. Over the period, more I look into hindu traditions and spiritual looking scriptures, and more I learned about Buddha's movements, more I realize how dangerous the hindu concepts are. Buddha certainly had reasons to fight against them. It is not just about not having faith in something that is mythical, even Buddha used lot of mythical concepts, but it is the dangers that are evident out of them that cause and deserve such a strong criticism and denial.
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